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[Table] IAmA: I'm Jaan Tallinn, co-founder of Skype, Kazaa, CSER and MetaMed. AMA.

2013.06.07 17:53 tabledresser [Table] IAmA: I'm Jaan Tallinn, co-founder of Skype, Kazaa, CSER and MetaMed. AMA.

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Date: 2013-06-07
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Questions Answers
Thoughts on what microsoft has done with skype? Microsoft: skype was acquired 3-4 times, depending on how you count, and microsoft was certainly different, since the earlier acquirers basically left the company mostly untouched (eg, it continued being a luxembourg business), whereas microsoft seems to be actually trying to squeeze out as much value (a.k.a. "synergies") from skype as possible (eg, actually integrating skype into their platforms and products).
PRISM: interesting situation. basically we have the word (and documents) of a whistleblower against the word of PR departments of respected tech companies. without knowing the details (just having read couple of articles from HN) i would assign equal credence to both sides.
How much of the 8 Billion did you get as tax-free take-home pay? Nothing, because i sold my shares to EBAY, not microsoft (as i said above, skype has been acquired several times).
Your PRISM response is dodgy at best. Whistle blowers with documents and proof vs people paid to lie in a clever way...and you say both have equal credence? To clarify, by "equal credence" i did not mean that they are both right, but "given the information i have (which is very little!) i would assign roughly similar probabilities to their statements being true".
That is ridiculous. Oh, and i disagree with the "people being paid to lie" statement.
How does it feel to have a capital city named after you? Capital city: heh, yeah, i wish.. tallinn (the city) has about a 1000-year head-start on me unfortunately. which when we'll be looking back on this in a couple of billion years will hardly matter of course :)
What happened? Kazaa and malware: what happened was that a) kazaa (like napster before it) failed to negotiate licensing deals with content companies, while b) the "paid downloads" industry was offering extremely lucrative deals.
Had you lost control of it by then? One thing to remember is that malware industry pretty much started around then and co-evolved with the likes of kazaa -- so it was constantly trying to find a balance between agressiveness and sustainability. much like real world viruses are, i might add.
Why is it that when I hit the close button on skype, it minimizes it? Who thought of that? That's standard behaviour for IM clients (after which skype was modeled). the client needs to remain running in order for other people to be able to contact you. skype was (and, to a significant degree, still is) P2P.
How do you think programming and philosophy relate to each other? do you think everyone is a philosopher? Oh, wow, an excellent question! i think programming can help people to overcome the mind projection fallacy, because you develop a sense of what it means to have your thoughts fully specified. this is extremely important in philosophy (not to mention other areas!) that has a really bad track record due to treating intuitions as evidence (or, as my friend michael vassar puts it, "philosophers have been spectacularly bad at recognising that their insights are produced by cognitive algorithms"). in my view philosophers have had thousands of years to come up with interesting thoughts and questions, but now we need answers, and they better be in the form of executable computer code!
How do you pronounce Kazaa? Internally we pronounced it ka-ZAH. the project was originally called KAA (after a restaurant in amsterdam, i was told), but we were not able to procure kaa.com domain, so the project was renamed to kazaa.
Who in the tech business world do you most respect, and who do you respect the least? Most: out of the well known figures, i would have to go with elon musk -- it's uncanny how much he resembles hank rearden! least: no one in particular comes to mind, but as a reference class, i would probably go with people who optimise their companies to be as fashionable as possible in order to attract investments (vs doing something that makes an actual difference). not that i can't understand them.
I'm puzzled. Tl;dr: humans - including prominent people - mostly do things that feel intuitively right to them, and our instincts value things that give you social status, meaning that you have to focus on things that a) most people easily understand (not the case with x-risks that are rather abstract) and b) where you can get short term feedback (again, not the case with x-risks).
It got removed! why??? i never knew of this skype me... Skype-me was a special presence you could set, making you visible to the entire world. unfortunately, we got a lot of complaints from users who accidentally set it and then were disturbed by unsolicited calls from strangers. so eventually, a business decision was made to get rid of it instead of fixing it.
Why do you think you've been able to work on such amazing technology? What do you differently than most that gives you such opportunities? My passion is definitely x-risk and related topics. it seems both the most important thing i could spend my time on, as well as the most rewarding in terms of people i get to work with (see previous point).
Outliers was a fascinating book. I feel like there's a story somewhere about your choosing people who care about being right more than appearing convincing... Care to share? Well, i don't remember any particular story off the top of my head, but i was lucky to attend a high-school that had the internal culture of math and physics being cool (eg, back then we used to dominate estonian math and physics olympiads, so there was a lot of positive feedback), and i believe that did influence me quite a bit (actually, 3 of the 4 skype founding engineers come from that same highschool class).
One of the issues my wife and I frequently discuss is the poor diagnostics found in modern hospitals and from doctors, the major issue being, "To a hammer, all problems are a nail." A personal example is that I went to the VA and was diagnosed with PTSD. Seth Horowitz did an AMA and in 5 minutes, with the same information the VA had, was able to identify the exact issue I had. Is this type of "crowdsourcing" medical problems the goal of MetaMed? You're right -- metamed has lots of stats on the challenges of healthcare system that we're hoping to address. we don't aim to do crowdsourcing per se (unless we figure out an effective way to do that!). instead, as i wrote here, our plan is to identify (and train) people who are good when it comes to evaluating evidence in the medical literature, and then have them do research for our clients (of course, we do plan to expand our advisory board over time, so we could have various experts at hand as well)
How good does it feel to have altered human sexuality? Haha! as my american friends would say, exciting! :)
How does one juggle programming, family, and being a founder of more than one organization? I want to know, what sort of sleep regimen and schedule do you keep? You never seem to be late, so would like to know, how you keep yourself organized. TODO-s and delegation :) (i really should delegate more of my coding projects, but i have the "old programmer's" problem of having hard time trusting other people's code).
Hey duude! My question is: If you had to start your career from scratch, would you go into the same parts of computer science, or do you wish you had tried some others? The thing with programming as a career is that the hardware we had when i started in late 80-s was so different from the hardware we have today -- to a degree where i would argue that being a programmer today is a different occupation than being a coder back then. so i couldn't do it all over again even if i wanted to.
Hi Jaan, thanks for your time today and for all your philanthropy! I'm hoping to get your opinion on the optimal distribution of resources/education. Do you think it's a better investment to focus on the best minds in hopes of developing new, revolutionary ideas; or to distribute our efforts to raise the education level of society as a whole? I guess that depends on the eventual goals. i have been thinking about this very question in the context of existential risks, and there it seems to boil down to timelines: since education takes time, it would not be very useful against risks that need to be addressed in the next decade or so. however, for longer term risks, it clearly is, so as long as one tries to address a wide range of possible scenarios, (effective) education can certainly play a very important role. hence my support to the center for applied rationality for example.
1.What do you think about when you start a tech start-up? (no really, what would you say were your frame of mind, at launch) Doing a startup is a process, not a moment, so there is no a single thing you're thinking about. at launch people are usually anxious about the public reception -- as you'd expect, really.
What eventually happened to Kazaa? It was sold to sharman networks that eventually crumbled under the weight of incoming lawsuits. interestingly, we actually developed next generation kazaa that never got launched due to sharman going under (also, skype was taking off, so we did not have much time to focus on it). which is a shame, because the world hasn't really seen what a p2p filesharing tech is actually capable of :)
You can't just say that and not expound on it! What do you mean? As opposed to fasttrack (the p2p platform underlying kazaa), it had exhaustive global searches (kazaa could only search 100k computers or so, whereas at its peak there were 5M users simultaneously online), and.
It was able to do sql-like queries over structured metadata of files (eg, "give me all artists whose recent albums contain a string 'hello'"), not just search file names.
Good morning and thanks for doing this AMA. When you developed games, was the end goal making them incredible difficult to win? Also, how long did Skype take to create? Haha! yes, my games career spanned the 90's, when "men were real men, women were real women and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri", so people had a different view of what "playability" meant. that said, you're right, of course many of them were clearly over the top even according to the standards back then :)
First version of skype took just 8 months from idea to launch -- from december 2002 till august 2003. shows the importance of having an experienced team that can hit the ground running.
Effectively communicating with doctors/medical professionals is hard for the average layperson. This problem is compounded when you're sick, scared, and uninformed. Is this one of the objectives of MetaMed? To help optimize the doctor-to-patient and patient-to-doctor communication dynamic? Yes, at least eventually.
The premise of metamed is that there's a lot of valuable people and expertise out there in the healthcare system and medical science, but it's fragmented and diluted in a system that does not really reward excellence (at least not in a way, say, that commercial aviation really has tight feedback loops that makes the system promote safety). so you need something or someone to identify the good bits.
Increasingly this is left to the patients themselves, but it can't be sustainable in the long term to assume that everyone is supposed to do their own medical research. at metamed we basically hire our researchers based on their ability to review medical literature and do the meta-research, so we can hopefully yield qualitatively better results.
In light of recent events. Has the government every approached you asking for a way to monitor skype? Me personally? no. of course skype's legal people were constantly contacted by various law enforcement agencies -- as you would expect.
What do you think of the Free Software movement? It clearly works well in areas where the problems are mostly limited to interesting technical challenges (such as OS-es), and less well when there are lots of nitty-gritty cross-domain challenges that require coordinating people with different expertise.
What is your opinion on Eleizer Yudkowsky, another prominent rationalist/futurist and founder of lesswrong.com? Well, eliezer's certainly an unorthodox figure, but i consider him a good friend. not to mention that i'm a donor to the organisation he founded -- MIRI.
Most importantly though, eliezer's writings were largely responsible for getting me interested in the whole x-risk reduction topic -- so he has been hugely influential in my current "career path".
What's the existential risk you're most afraid of? What should we be doing about it. I would not frame it in terms of fear, but intelligence explosion is on the top of my list of things to address -- both because of my own personal background (eg, i'm much less knowledgeable about x-risks from biology or nanotech) and also because AI, if done responsibly, can actually help with addressing the other x-risks.
Can you ask Priit Kasesalu if he will ever work on Subspace again? Ref for those who want to know what Subspace is: Link to www.subspace.co. Sure, will do :)
What do you do for fun? I like to dance :) as a computer nerd, i was completely surprised how much utility it can yield when you do it right.
How was strenghts divided between you and Janus Friis in regard to development, ideas and so on? Skype was a collective idea -- we actually pivoted from doing a wifi-sharing network (not unlike fon), to doing a VOIP product.
We actually got a lot of good press out of the fact that there are 5 countries on this planet who felt patriotic about skype (sweden and denmark because the main founders were from there, estonia because it was developed here, UK because the main business office was in london, and luxembourg because skype was a luxembourg company!)
What was your inspiration for Skype? The initial idea was to develop a wifi-sharing network, and then provide various "telecom-like" services on top of that, such as TV and telephony. however, 1) we were in the midst of lawsuits with major content producers after having done kazaa, so we dropped the TV idea, and 2) we found out that all the existing VOIP products out there at the time sucked (mostly due to their inability to work through NAT), so we focused on developing our own protocol.
How do you see companies like Viber threatening Skype? I think, in general, the main advantage that new companies have, is to be better adjusted to the current state of the ever-evolving technological environment.
For example, when the core skype code was written, we were mostly addressing desktop and laptop computers, so the tech design did not have energy consumption as a priority. now with the primary growth platform being smartphones, that is a problem (and once you have 100-s of millions of users, things like backwards compatibility considerations make your code hard to change)
Being a creator of kazaa, what are your personal views on the ethics of piracy? Do you believe piracy is wrong and companies should seek to stop it at all costs, or rather that piracy is only enabled by those who wont reinvent their business practices? I'm a consequentialist, so i don't think there is anything that should be done at all costs, or stopped because it's (normatively) "wrong".
What's your favorite piece of philosophical advice? As i wrote here, the meta-advice of always keeping in mind that your thoughts and intutions, including the philosphical ones, are generated by atoms moving around in your brain, must be one of my favorite ones.
(Hopefully someone sees this, although it seems the AMA is over) My question: Do we know this to be the case? Or is it probable? (I don't know the correct probability theory terminology) As someone who has recently discovered an interest in this subject matter and is working their way through some Yudowsky/Muehlhauser writings, this is something I'm struggling with. I have a philosophy background, but my undergrad work was on the continentals and transcendentalists, who I think would take issue with your claim. Oh geez, now I'm reading that LW post you referenced, but his "Failed Methods" section only briefly (and not very constructively) addresses the 'large swaths of philosophy' that I have been trained in. I suppose I could just read more, as I have been for the past year, but I think I'm just starving for some good ol' dialogue. Unfortunately, the internet is a much better medium for communicating the technical rationality found on LW, rather than the continental ideas that I'm trying to bring in. Oh geez. Perhaps someone could point me in the right direction? That's too difficult to answer in concise manner (eg, in my view there really is no meaningful difference between "something being the case" and "something being probable"), but "the lesswrong sequences" contain a wealth of information about this: Link to wiki.lesswrong.com
Wow, Kazaa. That's a name I haven't heard in a while. How long did it take to develop the program? Your thoughts on torrenting? I remember the initial kazaa project brainstorm was in summer 2000, and we released it in spring 2001 i think. not a lot of thoughts on torrenting other than it's clearly a solid technological protocol.
What's the hardest part(s) of getting a successful startup going? I have had venture capitalists approach me about funding a startup of mine, but they wanted WAYYY too much. How much is right to give away right out of the gate? Well, ignoring things like preferred shares, veto rights, etc for a moment, you just have to do the calculation of whether you expect, given the investment, the value of your diluted share of the company be greater or less than the undiluted share, given no investment. or, put more simply, if you don't expect the investment to make a significant difference in your growth rate, don't take it.
How's it going Mr. Tallinn. Did you ever work closely with Priit Kasesalu? I used to play with him in a game called Subspace, in which he was working on the client for the game, Continuum; shortly before he started working on Skype. Was a cool guy! Did you ever work on small projects like that before you worked on Skype? Sure, we started our programming careers together, co-founded bluemoon and now are working together at ambient sound investments.
What's your favorite programming language? Better yet, what are all the programming languages you know? In chronological order: basic, 8080 assembler, x86 assembler, c, c++, java, javascript, and currently python. thinking of moving on to clojure or haskell (my python already looks a lot like haskell :))
Is it true that earlier versions of Skype were written in Delphi? If yes what was the latest version used? What libraries? Why did Delphi got ditched? We just happened to have a couple of good UI developers who preferred to code in delphi. it was still used when i last was at skype, so i don't know if/why it was ditched.
Is Tallinn your real name, or a pseudonym taken from the capital of Estonia? If it is your real name, is there a story there? Both real name and taken from the capital, since estonian peasants got last names only a couple of hundred years ago when the city was already around.
As a prominent member of the social media and web based community what are your opinions on the recent developments with regards to the NSA spying scandal? Do you think large internet based companies could do more to be proactive about preventing these types of loopholes? See my reply here.
Can you tell us your opinion on the whole NSA thing that's just been revealed? See my reply here
Are the reports true that skype is releasing personal data? I wouldn't know, since i haven't been with skype for a while.
What do you know about the NSA tapping into Skype for surveillance purposes? Nothing. i'm no longer with skype.
Oh Kazaa, Thank you for taking my internet innocence You're welcome, especially if you put it that way :)
I wanted to make a similar comment. I have a four month old son and my husband works on a mine site. It means everything to us that he is able to see his son and make him smile. It makes my husband's personal sacrifice that bit easier to handle. Thanks :) i once did a quick fermi calculation at a party to estimate that i can take credit for roughly a million saved human relationships :)
probably a fair few created human relationships, too! I was bored one evening in 2006 and tried SkypeMe. One of the first people to pop up was a girl from Lima, Peru - 6,000 miles away. We've now been married for 5 years, and have a 2.5-year-old son together. So, thanks a million! :) Wow, very cool :) glad to hear that skype-me managed to be good for something before it got removed.
For some reason Estonia has become really well known on reddit lol. Mainly because of the awesome polandball shit but also generally in a positive light, unlike latvia and potatos. But yes. Estonia big. E-stonia hehueheuehuuhehue. Sometimes journalists ask me what's the "secret of estonia" -- i believe a large part of it is that we were "lucky" to be in a position of having to completely rebuild our infrastructure in the 90-s when the web was already around (and having young people in charge -- one of our early prime ministers, mart laar, was 32 years old at the time!). kind of similar advantage that new startups have over old companies -- having less legacy systems and hence more flexibility to take advantage of recent technological environment.
I love how you refer to old people as "legacy systems". Heh, that was not my intention :) but a friend of mine once made an interesting point by saying that the world has been taken over by aliens -- and, after a dramatic pause, clarified that most of the power and wealth in the world today is held by people who are older than people traditionally used to live.
2) It's a "black swan" problem (i.e. a low-probability, high-impact event might occur in the future that is not easily predictable from looking at the past), and human intuition SUCKS at having a proper awareness of these. (The recent bestseller "The Black Swan" covers this issue in detail) I don't agree that it is a black swan problem, actually. i agree with martin rees (my co-founder at CSER) that the chances of some existential risk materalising this century are around 50%.
Aitäh sulle. Palun :)
Skyroads was an amazing game, and pretty much what introduced me to PC gaming as a child. I just wanted to say thanks. Thanks :) yes, bluemoon still gets an occasional fan-email about that.
I remember i stopped using it after almost every mp3 i downloaded would scare the living shit out of me with a 100 decibel white noise screech. Tell you what though, i much prefer Spotify, which i guess kazaa paved the way for by starting the whole P2P thing. Right, there were companies out there who were commissioned to pollute the file sharing networks. interestingly, i later met some people who worked for them -- it was fun swapping "war stories" :)
Id like to know what you think about the latest NSA illegal wireless tapping, the storage of meta data and how it all ties in with skype talk sessions that are stored and given to Government Agencies. I gave one quick reply here, but as a general rule, i try to steer clear of hot political debates (and signalling tribal affiliations), because doing that seems instrumentally counter-productive for my goal of x-risk reduction.
Last updated: 2013-06-11 15:11 UTC
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